From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Let the Lynching begin LOL
I am now shooting vanes.
Sometime back I started shooting 3 under, and almost immediately went to an elevated rest, because the bow is quieter with the rest, than off the shelf when shooting 3 under.
Well, last night while cleaning all the spooge/goo from yet another arrow (yea I killed another pig last night), I got to thinking.
Self I says - "Yea, feathers are purdy, but they just never are the same after ya gunk em all up like this."
Self I says again - "Vanes would clean up a whole lot easier, and you know from past experience, that they are quieter."
So this morning, I reflecthed with VANES. OMG VANES !!!!
The bow is 10 times quieter with them, than with the feathers.
I had to pull 10gr off the tail of the arrows to get them back to where they need to be.
Three 4" vanes weight 10gr more than four 4" feathers.
Since my elevated rest is not a flipper (rubber weather rest), I wound up shooting them cock vane up (12 o'clock) which gives me perfect flight, and is great, because when I line the broadheads up with the vanes, I have a blade of the 3 blade VPAs at 12 o'clock also.
They shoot perfect, seem a tad faster, and are super quiet.
Add to that, the fact that they are more durable, and easier to clean up than feathers,
AND
"It is a WIN WIN set up."
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From: Timberghost
Date: 25-Sep-09
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I think the elevated rest is a more blasphemous and intolerable sin than the vanes. Where's my rope!!!... ;0)
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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GET A ROPE!!!!!!!....JUST KIDDING.
Been there, done that. Been doing that for many many years. Not for the reason of cleaning easier ( a good side benefit). Try hunting in the snow & rain, and not worry about keeping your feathers dry. I have tried feather dry products but nothing works like vanes.
Keeping your feathers dry is no different as keeping your black powder dry. If the feathers get wet and matted down not only will it effect arrow flight but you add a great amount of weight due to the feathers soaking. Like blackpowder you have to wait for it to dry before you can fire it. Same with feathers.
I shoot feathers in some of my bows still. I do as many do. I carry a small plastic bag to keep them dry. But when it is going to be 1 to 2 weeks away from town, out of state, uncertain of weather hunt....VANES!
YEP! it is a WIN WIN situation.
Rick, there might be a double hamging here.
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From: Rom120
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Labs, I like my popcorn with extra butter..
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 25-Sep-09
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shoot what you want and who cares what anyone else thinks
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From: The Elf
Date: 25-Sep-09
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As a fellow 3 under shooter I am really surprised and pleased to hear everything is so much quieter with the raised rest.It bears looking into. Also vanes might be a better fit for some of the places that my bows and I end up.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Gilbert,
yea I used to shoot vanes all the time, but I got caught up in wanting everything to look cool, and purdy (lets face it, feathers are purdy. Vanes are butt ugly), but vanes are just a better all around fletch, especially if you are shooting an elevated rest.
I have always been able to make vanes shoot off my bows, even from the shelf (even my longbows).
````````````````````````````````
James (The Elf),
the reason my bow is quieter with the rest as apposed to the shelf when shooting 3 under is -
using the "elevated" rest allows me to get my finger placement back to the best balance of limb load, and timing (without having to shoot a pronounced high nocking point), therefore the bow is quieter.
Now, that explanation may just open up a whole new subject for debate. LOL
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From: Graysquirrel
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rick, I have a set of arrows with the 2 inch blazer vanes that I use when it's really damp. They work amazingly well. I use a flipper 2 on my widows, have ever since shooting the old skeleton frame widows from long ago. They work period.
Paul Schafer used a rest and vanes to hunt with. They work well and do what they are supposed to in the right conditions.
Now when it's darn hot, different story. They tend to fold up and bend when hot.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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You're absolutely right Bob, but the newer (more rubbery) soft vanes hold their shape real well.
I would rather shoot a flipper rest, than this rubber weather rest, but a lot of the places I shoot competition (TBoT) do not allow a rest with movable parts, and since I will only compete with the exact same equipment I hunt with, the weather rest it is.
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From: McDave
Date: 25-Sep-09
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I recently bought a PSE Heritage, 30# @ 28", 62" recurve bow for $110 new, so that my grandchildren and others who come visit me would have something to shoot with if they want to. It comes equiped with a Mickey Mouse paste on plastic rest, which I asked the salesman if I should even bother with. He said some people like it, so try it before I put anything else on there, especially considering the intended use.
So I brought the bow home, set the nock arbitrarily at 5/8", and began shooting the 1716 arrows with vanes that the guy in the store thought would work pretty well. I was shooting 3 under. I began getting 3" groups at 20 yards....repeatedly. I can't get 3" groups at 20 yards with any of my $1,000 bows! Of course, my other bows are heavier weight, and I suppose I can control the 30# bow better, but come on, no arrow tuning, arbitrary nock point, and now I'm confused!!
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From: Graysquirrel
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Funny some of the rules so called experts put into their tournament formats. Flipper type rests have been around since the 40's. Magnetic rest around the same time. I've got a few of the old metal flipper rests that come with two phillips screws to hold it on the cutout window after you dremeled out the little square for the rest. Some of the old Bear recurves come from the factory made that way. I've got a couple old plactic magnetic rests from the 50's that simply stuck on the window with glue. I've got a picture of Russ Hogerhyde shooting a selfbow with a rest AND a sight on it from the 30's. And I've got a picture of Babe Blitzenberger shooting a forward handle overdraw longbow from the 40's.
Of course "all this ain't traditional" so it's a no no. But it's been around for a very long time.
I shoot the 3d's with my hunting set up. But I've also got a widow set up to shoot off the shelf for when I go back east to visit my boy. They seem to think rests are a new thing and should not be allowed. The root of the problem is that they probably aren't smart enough to figure out how they are used.
My longbows are set up off the shelf and I hunt with them that way. But they tend to like shooting off the shelf anyway.
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Off the shelf, elevated rest, some people just plain get carried away. Yes, some people do not make any sense at all. As it was just stated, some of the so called no-no in tournament rules are plain silly. Flipper rests among other things that are outlawed have been around since way back when it was considered traditional.
Truth be known, shooting off the shelf IS shooting off of an elevated rest. If people want to be purists then shoot off the knuckle. The very 1st elevated rest was the shelf. Then it was refined to a little higher elevation to do away from the super hard surface. Progress does not stand still, does it. LOL!
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rick??, what do you mean that vanes are butt ugly?
Get yourself 3 hot pink vanes, a red lumenok, and X7 Blue anadized arrows, and they will be as pretty any feathered arrow.
On second thought i will stay with my 3 RED vane butt ugly set up.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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I Love ya Gilbert.
I started an argument at a shoot one time (known for such things) on the subject of elevated rests VS off the shelf.
I asked this question:
If I were to build a riser where the shelf was pitched upward in a triangular shape, where the arrow was actually being held at the same height from the hand as with an elevated rest, and with as little contact area as the elevated rest - what would you call it ?
They whole crowd was in a stupor. I mean, they didn't know what to say.
I went on to say - technically it would still be considered the shelf of the riser, because is a part of it instead of an added on piece. Then and only then did the "Trad Police" jump all over me claiming that it could be considered nothing but an elevated rest. I had quite the laugh that day over some of the outrageous implications that were made.
By the way - I have done just what I described above, and it works like a charm.
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rick, my point exactly. I have noticed that we both are on the same wave lenght most of the time. We word it differently at times but mean the same thing.
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Have you guys tried those rain vanes? I wonder if they are even better for you.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rain Vanes ?
Guess I never heard of them.
Alex,
I have always just tried to find the softest (easiest to bend), that I could find, because that softness makes them a little more forgiving to any contact you might get during arrow pass.
Back when I first started using them, they were more like thin plastic, than like rubber, and as Bob mentioned, they did not stand up well to heat, plus sunlight would cause them to deteriorate after a while, and they would become brittle.
These newer ones, are more rubbery, and don't have the problems of old.
The ones I am using are the "Elite Plastifletch" 4", but don't let the name "Plastifletch" fool ya. They are more like rubber.
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rick Check out Three Rivers catalog, page 43, they are called Bi-Delta 4" Rain Vanes. Description- For recurves and longbows. Immune to rain and snow, with microcuts along the vane similar to feathers.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Ahhhhhhhh, OK, I have used them, but other than the way the looked, I couldn't tell any difference between them, and a good soft vane.
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 25-Sep-09
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I shoot feathers, do you think I could have a few fletched up with these Rain Vanes and have little trouble shooting them? I currently use the feather dri from Bohning which has worked well for me.
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From: Andy Man
Date: 25-Sep-09
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MAX , I shoot with the same little or no problems, but being open minded I just might give the vanes a try . If they work out would be good to have one or two in the quiver on those long heavy rainy days/weeks. Gilbert, sorry but they be still ugly Betty's compared to feathers, well unless your feathers are all matted and wet.
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From: labs4me
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Last guy I knew to shoot vanes out of a traditional bow was missing his front teeth AND dated his cousin who was missing her teeth too. Made it difficult for her to keep her chew in place. But hey, shoot vanes if ya want to.
:)
Rom, popcorn with extra butter coming your way.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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LOL X 1000000000000000000000000000000000
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Ooops. Sorry Alex. I was laughing so hard over Lab's post I forgot to answer you.
I didn't have to retune the bow to them at all.
I was shooting 4" 4 fletch feathers, then put these vanes on this morning.
The only thing that changed was the weight (had 10gr more with the vanes. I pulled 10gr of the tail, rotated the fletching to 12 o'clock cock vane, and they shoot just like the feather fletched arrows with exception to, they are quieter, and maybe a tad faster.
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Labs, poetry, sheer poetry. That is "poison in jest" lol When I carry my safari tuff quiver I guess I don't really have to worry about it anyway.
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From: Graysquirrel
Date: 25-Sep-09
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oh labs is just jealeous, he ain't got NO teeth
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 25-Sep-09
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I shoot Trueflight Bright Stripes, "They're real, and they're SPECTACULAR!"
Trueflight Feathers, the choice of attractive hunters around the world!
If you want to know where I stand on this issue, please feel free to look at Bowhunter Magazine, Bowhunting, or most any other archery magazine, and you will see yours truly in the ad with a nice rio and my Black Widow. The ads have been running about 2 months. Proof that Trueflight feathers are shot by the best looking bowhunters. lol
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Speaking of teeth. I been real lucky.
Be 52 years old in a few more days, and I ain't never had a cavity.
Heck I ain't even even had a tooth ache other than the ones induced by objects being slammed into them. Worst one of all was from a full coors lite longneck.
Ohhhhhhhhhh wait - worst toothache I ever had was once when I had my teeth cleaned. Next day I was in northern Colorado mulie hunting in well below freezing temperatures. Yea, my teeth hurt like a son of a gun on that trip, cuz of the cold.
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Andy Man, Ugly Betty?? Yep i HAVE seen UGLY BETTY.
It was in the early 70s on a Caribou hunt. After 4 days of unmercyfull wind and rain my feather dry powder and my plastic bag was not enough to keep my feathers dry. They were soaking wet and matted down to the shafts....THAT, was "Uuuugly Betty" feathers.
It was at this point that i decided that would never happen again. At the begining vanes were a joke more or less. Some would work great but as soon as it turn cold they would stiffen and get hard, so the arrow flight during cold morning, well, imagine if you will. It was then that a Rep for Flex Fletch came buy to my archery shop. He put them in the frezzer for a couple of hours and they were not effected, he put heat on them and they were still the same. The rest is history.
Not to long ago Easton came out with their Diamond vanes. I have frozen them and run them thru several tests and they are good, real good vanes, and that is what i am useing now. Why not Flex Fletch anymore?
IMO the Easton vanes as they claim have a textured surface opposite to the super smooth surface of the FleX Fletch, and IMO i get absolutley perfect arrow flight and greater accuracy with less vane lenght than the Flex Fletch. I am shooting(split finger)now 3 Easton Diamond vanes - .380 lenght "VS" .418 Flex Fletch. A little bit less weight also. The Flex Fletch had the height of their vanes lower too. Not much.
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From: Andy Man
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Thanks Gilbert; I plan to try some just to have on hand by for those really heavy rainy periods. If I can make them work it would be nice to have as a back up. Don't think I would switch overall though.
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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MAXHunter, what month issue did iy begin. Is it an ad for Trueflight feathers.
I WILL look into cause i doubht that you are better looking than me. As good looking as i am i am shooting vanes.
How do i know that i am better looking without even having seen you. I asked a non biased person if there could possibly be somebody better looking than me, and my 13yr old granddaughter said "ABOLSUTELY NOT PoPo". So there you have Alex. You want to argue with her...i think not.LOL!
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Andy Man, i hope my views on vanes "VS" feathers did not come across as a testamonial meaning that everybody should go to vanes.
It was just my view and experience and nothing more.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 25-Sep-09
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One thing I might put forth to those who have never used vanes - they will not stabilize the arrow as quickly as feathers do,
so
if you decide to try them be aware -
1 - your tuning might be a little more critical.
2 - they are not as forgiving to a bad release, but it ain't bad.
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From: GILBERT
Date: 25-Sep-09
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Rick. i am going to have to differ on this one. I was of that thought at the very begining, but properly tune bow and arrows to the bow, they actual recover faster FOR ME. They are a little slower out of the bow but they hold a flater trajectory, FOR ME. Being that the vane is a harder surface Vs feathers that will lay down from the velocity is probably why it develops a better air pocket and mantains that air pocket better, and because the air slides easier off the vane, might be the reason why it mantains a flater trajectory FOR ME.
Yes, vanes were a little more critical of release. After experimenting with different tab designs and material, i hit on one of my own design, useing a double layer of .030 thk pig suede. Now i see no differnce between feathers and vanes accuracy wise. They made me realise that the glove i shot for so many years was not the best for good and accurate shooting. FOR ME.
If anything i get better arrow flight with vanes than i do with feathers, THATS ME. Plus they quiet my bow even further. FOR ME.
Before, as soon as i got the arrow flight that i was happy with i would concentrate on form and accuracy and do quite well. With vanes you can have perfect arrow flight and not have the accuracy because your bow and arrow tune up is off. It can be off with feathers and not know it but you can do allright not so with vanes. There are some tricks i learned over the years about tuneing vanes that i now apply to feathers as well.
They taught me more than i can say about tuneing a bow, completly and perfectly.
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 26-Sep-09
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Gilbert - I have to agree with you to a point.
Vanes will recover quicker, if you are shooting them off of a movable, and adjustable rest, which makes the tuning process easier,
but
when shooting them from the shelf, or a non adjustable fixed rest, it is a little more difficult than feathers.
The hard vanes will absolutely recover the arrow quicker than feathers, but the soft ones I shoot will not.
The hard vanes are less forgiving to any contact you might get during arrow pass.
Paradox is "a beautiful thing" when ya got it workin right for ya. 8^)
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From: GILBERT
Date: 26-Sep-09
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No arguement there Rick. I was talking about shooting them off an elevated rest, not the shelf.
I CANNOT shoot vanes off the shelf. I need utter perfect arrow flight and utter perfect tune (or as close as i can get it). The time i tried shooting off the shelf the consistantly was not there for me. It was very close but not close enough.
A friend of mine that shot vanes (Paul Shafer, 1st class bowyer-maker of the Sahfer Silver Tip) told me once that being that vanes were not as forgiving as feathers, that certain points had to be confronted with alot more importance than with feathers, He commented on the points that you would normally get by with feathers, you would not with vanes.
Many of the points discovered in tuneing vanes were either trial and error or just plain common sense.
One very important point that i have to give Paul credit for was vane fletching consistancy. His finding was that fletching vanes with a Jo Jan fletcher did not give the consistancy he wanted, unless he fletched useing just one stall with the same clamp all the time. I switched to the Bitzenburger, and Paul was right. Now i fletch 12 arrows and all 12 will shoot the same, rather than maybe 3 or 4 out of 12 as before.
There are several other points of much importance that need to taken into account in tuneing vanes to your bow. I called them tricks, maybe not the right word.
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From: Rom120
Date: 07-Oct-09
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I ordered some rain vanes to try. 3 Rivers have a note saying to fletch with the cock feather up. Is that the way everyone does it?
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From: Graysquirrel
Date: 07-Oct-09
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Gilbert, I've been fletching for a shop for years now. When I fletch for them, the 2 jo-jan multifletchers are used.
when I fletch arrows for me. A single bitzenburger is used.
Why???? because no matter what for consistancy, you gotta just use one fletching clamp and one jig.
Jeff, Black Widow recommends using the 12 o'clock position for the cock feather, whether its feathers or vanes.
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From: Rom120
Date: 07-Oct-09
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Now I really feel stupid. Time to get the fletching jig back out....
Since reading this forum on a daily basis, I have learned more than I ever imagined I could. My bowhunting friends all shoot compounds, so, when I ask them questions, they usually cock their heads and look at me like I'm nuts. (they are right, by the way)
Thank goodness for the Widow Wall!
My two goals for the off-season are to start experimenting with carbon shafts and to own a Black Widow with MY name on it!
Finding my way with help from the WidowWallers,
Jeff
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From: Rick Barbee
Date: 07-Oct-09
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Yep - 12 o'clock position for the cock feather/vane works best for me no mater what fletching type, and no mater whether I am shooting off the shelf or an elevated rest.
Now if yer shooting of your knuckle thats a whole different story. 8^P
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From: Rom120
Date: 07-Oct-09
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When I ordered the rain vanes, I also ordered Masters of the Barebow 2. Fred Eichler turns the cock feather in. I tried that over lunch and shot a smaller group. But it was my second round of arrows. I'll give it a rest and try it that way first.
Rick, I also tried the velcro on my limb tips. Works like a dream. Alco has it too. (we don't have a Wal-Mart)
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From: cm
Date: 09-Oct-09
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What has happened to us! I feel I am being overcome by the dark side! I am now shooting an Easton Axis Full Metal Jacket 500 shaft, fletched with 4 inch Dura-Vanes from my 53lb PSAX, from a para-brush elevated rest. I am shooting my old reliable 125 grain Magnus 2 blades again this season. And, man do they they fly! I haven't shot anything alive with this set-up. But I swithched to 3 under this spring and have mutated to this set-up over the course of the summers shooting. I feel so naughty, but man do they fly. I am shooting the best of my life right now, mostly due to changes in form. However, i can shoot a mixed quiver of 4 inch vanes and feathers into the same 3 inch group at 2o yards. Talk about confidence!!
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From: Shooter
Date: 13-Oct-09
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Iset up a bow a while back just for nasty weather and this last weekend it was a blessing.Rained al day sat and sunday.I never worried about it or my arrows.
19" Mamba ILF riser Medium 44lb carbon/foam limbs (adjusted to 48#) at my 28" draw. Hoyt hunter rest. 55-75 GTs 530grain total weight 17.7 foc and 4" quick spin vanes (fly like darts)
Most accurate rig i have ever shot.Love my Widows but when the weather goes south i go metal,carbon and plastic. Shooter
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From: Rom120
Date: 16-Oct-09
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Lynch me along with Barbee....rain vanes work great. Shooting off of the shelf, they grouped right with feathers. I shot them cock feather in, cock feather out, cock feather at 12, it didnt matter.
I was hoping to try them out "for real" in a steady drizzle on Wed., but had no opportunity. I wiped them off when I got home and they are ready for the next rain.
Labs, I did NOT marry my cousin, nor does she chew.....just to clear that one up...
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From: passthru
Date: 21-Oct-09
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The vanetec 2" HP V-max Vane High Profile has worked succesfully for myself and a friend- they realy shinned on a recent speed goat hunt in high winds.
They also do not wear in a bow case as feathers are often crushed during transport.
One downside is that you loose sight of them as they go down range.
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From: Tajue17
Date: 29-Oct-09
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sounds like a mighty fine "rainy day bow"
I'd like to set something up with the Nap Spin vanes and a plastic rest thats trimmed on the bottom to get it as close to the shelf as possible.
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