From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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hello all i shoot a PSAIII 50 lbs 28 at 28 inches my draw length is 28. Bare shaft tuning my bow the arrows look like they fly pretty straight Carbon express 350 at 32 inches with a 125 grain tip, I was just wondering if this sounds like the right arrow choice. I know at 20-30 yards i hit what i am at bare shafting. thinking about paper tunining it also. I am just curious if anyone has any insight.
thanks
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From: KAZ
Date: 30-Oct-09
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Hi Wiso, I guess I'd start with if they are flying well in bare shaft tuning and accurate at 20-30yards is pretty darn good. The arrow choice seems awfully stiff, and on the low side of normal F.O.C.. You have decent arrow weight at approximately 545-550grains. The arrow stiffness choice is counteracted by the longer 32" arrows so if you're fine with the overall length of the arrows you're certainly in the ball park for tuning purposes. Now if you add wraps and other goodies to the back of the arrow you may need to add a little weight to the front via tip or insert. Also if you shorten the the length of those arrows you're heading in to stiff territory and will need more weight up-front. Kind of a preference deal from here on what shaft & properties you're trying to achieve.
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 30-Oct-09
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I don't think that is the proper arrow shaft by a long shot. You should definitely be closer to a Carbon Express 150 than a 350. No need to shoot 32" arrows with a 28" draw. Are you looking for extra weight?
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From: KAZ
Date: 30-Oct-09
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I'm with you MAXHunter on this not being a "standard" configuration. Just trying to comment on what he has, not what he should get. That's why I added the "ifs, preference, and property desires". I shoot almost 52lbs @almost 28" and my arrows are Carbon Express 150s cut to 28.5", 50 grain insert, 125 grain head, cresting wraps & 3-5"Fletch. Total weight 528 grains. To me, I would not shoot with 4" hanging over the front end or deal with housing the larger arrows in a quiver, and I have a preference for different arrow properties. More info from Wiso about desired properties or outcome would help in generating assistance.
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From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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Kas and MAXHunter, i was trying to have an arrow over 500 grains without adding weight up front the arrow has a wrap and was fletched i just trimmed the feathers. I have a bareshaft 150 and could give that a try. and yes i was looking for the extra weight without buying inserts or brass tips. I tried the 150 and 250 and they indicated I need a heavier tip while bare shafting. thanks for the help so far
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From: KAZ
Date: 30-Oct-09
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Wiso, The 350 is the stiffest spine of the Carbon Express Heritage shafts, then 250, then 150, then finally the weakest is their 90. With the length of shafts being equal the 350 should require the most weight in order for it to bare shaft properly. So your statement that the 150 & 250 need a heavier tip for bare shafting would indicate they are too stiff. My guess is either the 150 and 250s were not the 32" length, or there is something else going on. I personally like the idea of adding weight to the front of the shaft with the brass inserts, either 50 grain or 100 grain. That keeps me with a wide variety of broadheads & tips to use in the 125 grain range. Plus it raises my F.O.C. which I like. Nothing extreme but better. They cost about $13 to $14 for the dozen. You would be able to get either the 150s or the 250s to work with a shorter arrow which would not be so cumbersome. However, if your set-up is flying properly, and you don't mind the long arrow, this falls in to preference & desired properties. If you want a recommendation for typical set-up I'd reference my set-up above. 150s with 50 grain inserts, start with the shaft longer than my 28.5", say closer to 30", then cut down 1/4" at a time. My guess would be that 29" shafts will end up being real close with the inserts. If you like heavier arrows and more F.O.C. Then go with 250s or even your 350s with 100 grain inserts and/or heavier field tips. Any direct questions feel free to ask?
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From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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KAZ
I am going to try the 150's will let you know what i come up with, thanks for your help.
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From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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KAS I got 250's with a 100 grain insert to flying pretty darn good at 30 1/4 inches the 150s with the 100 grain insert started to perform at 28 inches but that was too short so I will end up using the 250 with 100 grain brass tips. overall length 30 1/4 which is alot nicer then the ultra long arrows. now I just need to move my knock point up until i find sweet spot.
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From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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KAS final results bare shafting, I decided to try for a bit of perfection after I found my sweet spot. 29 1/2 with the 250 heritage,100 grain insert, and 125 grain tip. That flew pretty darn sweet at 25 yards arrow weight was brought up i am thinking 550 or so that would be 15 grains per pound, is that to much weight? I do hunt some pretty tough animals here in alaska.
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From: anglingarcher
Date: 30-Oct-09
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Wiso,
I shoot 50# at 27" and shot the 150's cut 28". They weighed in around 440 grains with wraps and 5" feathers. You need a hair stiffer arrow than I due to your 1" longer power stroke and 1" longer arrow. If you wanted to shoot 150's you would actually need to go lighter up front which after readin this thread I see you do not want to do. Therefore your experiments with the 250's should get you where you want to be. Looks like you guys have it covered.
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From: wiso_67
Date: 30-Oct-09
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Angling
Thanks for the insight. I think I have finally got it figured out my 250 will give me 11.5 grains per pound. and they fly better the the 350s did at 32 inches long. Now all i have to do is order some shafts and practice so come spring I can get me a bear here in alaska using my widow.
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From: KAZ
Date: 31-Oct-09
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Wiso, Sorry I'm a little slow in response. You did good Wiso. I'm thinking your finished arrows may be closer to 575 to 585 grains, unless you actually weighed them? That would actually be around 11.5 grains per pound @50lb draw weight. If it flys great, then I like it alot. Well done, Now go enjoy your tuned set-up. You will be much happier with this route than your 32" 350s, all the way around. Should be a good effective hunting set-up for alaska.
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From: wiso_67
Date: 31-Oct-09
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KAS
I did weigh each component and your dead on came to 11.5 grains per bow pound, now all i have to do is bite the bullet and buy those expensive suckers lol. Thanks again for your insight and help
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From: Ken Peterson
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Wiso,
This thread is why I love about this group of people.
BTW my set up is almost the same and I've been contemplating carbon for a bit so I'm learning too!
Ken
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From: Rom120
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Ken, I'll second that times two!....always learning here.
When you guys bareshaft, do you already have the wraps on? I've never used wraps, but I ordered some with the CE 250s that are now on their way!
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From: KAZ
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Rom120, I'm pretty particular so the answer is yes. I have a digital grain scale that I find really enjoyable to have. I bought it from Black Widow for around $25-$30 I think. I've done a couple of things. One is, typical 3-5" Fletch is in the range of 15 grains, plus wraps are similar so about 30 grains is "typical". You can buy white 3M vinyl tape or similar from the hardware store and cut it to length of your wrap, say 7", two layers of one wrap would be close for the simulation. One wrap for feathers, one wrap for the "wrap". etc. I have the Black Widow 7" Wraps, plus the Clear Protective Wrap so I have to account for more. Of course I weigh things to be exact but this would be close. Once I get what I like, I outfit my "Bareshaft" with the exact set-up as my regular arrows so I have a "tuning/form/rest" diagnostic aid/arrow. One thing to note is that arrow rest, strike plate configuration, and shelf-cut or build-up play a significant roll in the tuning properties of your set-up. You can reduce or build-up your strike plate if you like to tune as well. I prefer to set-up my rest & strike plate the way I like, THEN tune my arrows to it, NOT the other way around. But to each his own. Finally, the wrap & fletch weight on the back end of the arrow DOES affect your spine so I account for it. Any direct questions feel free to ask.
KAZ
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 03-Nov-09
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Amazing Kaz, I had a post about this a little while back. I bareshaft tune with my wraps, and then add the clear wraps to replicate the feathers weight. My feathers weigh 13 grains and the wraps are around that as well. So my shooting arrows just have my one decorative wrap and my tuning arrows have my decorative wrap and clear wrap. I always have 3 bareshafts in my quiver at all times. I have a different color nock, a flourescent orange one, so I can see them better. Everyone should try this, it is 100% effective. If you don't use wraps, put a wrap on a bareshaft. If you use one wrap put 2 on a bareshaft so on and so forth. Call Onestringer Arrow Wraps and they can help you get wraps that weigh the same as your feathers, there are different lengths and widths of wraps so you can definitely find one that matches your feather weight.
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