From: FRJ
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Please let me start this by saying that this is in no way a complaint on Axis shafts. I love them and don't shoot anything else. The question is: On4 occasions now I have had axis 340's break on impact with a foam target. These are by no means new shafts and have seen a lot of shooting, but I check my shafts regularly and these showed no sign of any damage before the breaks. First one flew perfectly at a deer mckenzie target and broke halfway down the shaft on impact. Nice clean break with none of the usual shards a person would associate with carbons.Almost like a line had been drawn around the shaft and been cut there. Second one same scenario. Third one my partner who always pulls our arrows while I record the score mentioned that my arrow had made a tick sound when he pulled it.Since I've had 2 bows blow up with the preceding shot having a little "tick" I visually checked the arrow thoroughly and saw no flaws but on giving it a twist it snapped cleanly in the center, again a very clean break.Yesterday when he was pulling our arrows I heard a loud crack and the arrow was broken about an inch or so behind the point, just behind the insert. It isn't my buddies pulling, he pulls very straight and clean and the arrows are not shot into anything but foam. It almost looks like fatigue is finally getting to a set of fine arrows that have thousands of shots on them. Has anyone else experienced this phenominan (spelling) and if so what do you attribute it to? Thanks FRJ
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From: KAZ
Date: 02-Nov-09
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FRJ, I have a lot of experience with Axis 400s and have never had an issue like you describe. This is not meant to be negative, but my first consideration would be in arrow flight. There really should be no abnormal stress in the arrow half-way down. However if the arrows are flying Tail high,tail low, tail right, tail left, consistently they are taking an "energy" stress hit every time the arrow impacts. I'd bare shaft test/tune one and see if all things are good. If all things are good then I'd suspect that "something" happened or is flat out damaged with your shafts. I'd throw them out and move on with confidence in a new set of shafts.
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From: markd
Date: 02-Nov-09
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If you shoot a lot of McKenzie type targets you might (as I do) make a bad shot sometimes and hit the leg or somehow hit the metal that goes up inside the leg. In thousands of shots and arrow can hit that metal a few times and begin some unseen damage that will manifest itself later. Every time I miss the target and hit a wall or wood outbuilding or concrete block or metal object or something else "hard", I find at least some damage to the shaft like fraying behind the point or a feather jarred off or the nock jarred out or something.
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From: FRJ
Date: 02-Nov-09
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KAZ, these arrows were individually bare shafted and fly perfectly. I'm thinking its just normal breakage caused by the stress of thousands of shots. I am going to junk them and get a new set and start over. They are fine shafts and actually quite cheap considering the # of shots a person gets out of them vs conduit or wood. markd I have to confess that I have on the rare LOL occasion hit something hard with these shafts. I guess my only concern is that they show no signs of breaking until they just do. I do foot the front behind the point to avoid the splintering that occurs with hard hits. Guess that energy has to go somewhere. FRJ
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From: markd
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Yes, I think a hard object direct hit is going to damage something somewhere! :-) I have used Axis for many,many years and have never found a more durable shaft. Might just be time to retire those few you have left for stumpin and such. "Thousands" of shots is a lot to expect but we do expect it. Still, everything has a breaking point including crowbars, hammers, anvils, etc.... and maybe even the Axis. :-)
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 02-Nov-09
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I have been shooting the Axis NFused for about a year now and shoot nearly every day into either 3D targets or a Block layered foam target and have had no problems like this at all. I am shooting the 400's - the 340's should be even stronger. I think that KAZ is on to something - try shooting the fletched shaft through paper and see what kind of flight you are getting - my guess is that your arrow is flying poorly - more than likely too stiff. If the bow you are registered under is the bow you are shooting - 340's would seem a bit stiff - unless you have loads of weight up front - and that might be an issue too.
good luck.
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From: FRJ
Date: 02-Nov-09
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Each and every one of these shafts have been individually tuned and slowmotion movies done on each and every one. They fly perfect!!! I wouldn't retire them to shoot at anything they are going in the garbage and a new set is on order. Don't know which bow I'm registered under but I own 4 and these are being shot from a PSA V that is 55#. I'm shooting 260gr plus inserts up front on this and my long bow. If they are breaking they are no longer safe to shoot maybe I'll have a funeral since they were really good to me. FRJ
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From: MISTAGAIN
Date: 02-Nov-09
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I shoot a similar set up but without so much weight up front. The only one I had break was still in the deer when she ran into a russian olive thicket. Good luck.
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From: whack-n-stack
Date: 02-Nov-09
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I shoot Axis 400's and I have had a similar problem with them. I had an arrow break upon release of the arrow, and the back half of the arrow went thru my hand right between the thumb and index finger. Prior to this happening I had an arrow break in my Mckinzie target. Now that I know what the problem was it will never happen again.
When shooting into the target the arrow tend to follow old holes and sometimes vear left or right into the target. This causes the arrows to nick one another. All that being said, I now visually check my arrows and bend them from tip to nock after every time they are pulled from the target. Not sure that this is what happened in your case but it's a good safety precaution.
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 03-Nov-09
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I bet it is the extreme amount of weight up front that is causing the problem - in order to get those shafts to fly right you need 260 grains up front - i bet if you used the 400's with a less extreme FOC you would not be having these problems. Actually I am almost certain of it - cause everyone I know that uses them with 125 - 150 grains up front is not having any issues - in fact - we have all come to believe that these are among the strongest and longest lasting shafts we have ever used.
Call Easton - I would almost bet my Widow that they will tell you the same thing - that the extreme amount of weight up front is causing a stress on the arrow and that is why you are getting a clean brake in the same spot everytime.
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From: KAZ
Date: 03-Nov-09
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FRJ, Just to be clear. None of my posts are intended to question the "Truth" of your statements or your expertise. I'm just offering suggestions to aid in your own analysis. For me the last two posts by whack-n-stack & onesharp in concert with what I know about Axis shafts & what you have experienced as well sum it up. I'm quite confident that the extreme weight forward is the catalyst for the abnormal energy stress on the shaft. As we all know, not every shot comes off clean even with perfectly tuned arrows, AND when we hit firm objects, that energy has to go somewhere. To me, in your case the weight forward components are directing that energy to a more finite point than across the entire shaft length. I have witnessed these exact issues with wood, aluminum, and now carbon arrows. I choose to shoot carbon arrows because they are the toughest, most consistent set-up I can find. My buddy last year used aluminums with similar weight forward components and he was breaking or bending arrows consistently. They were more like ammunition than reuseable arrows. We switched him over to carbon this year and changed his properties. Walla, reuseable arrows. In fact one of his has been through 3 deer rib cages this year alone. No way last year. I know that Axis arrows are one of the toughest arrows out there by lots of experience. If these are "breaking", there's probably a systemic reason. Personally, I'd change the set-up as you never know when the "camels back gets broke" and you end up with something of high concern. I know you have had a high degree of success with your current shafts & set-ups which is good. But this issue surely could be trying to tell you something. Only trying to help, you obviously are meticulous in your set-up and tuning. This sure seems to be an anomaly resulting in pushing something to it's yield or degradation limits. I fear that's not a proportional or predictable decline.
Respectfully,
KAZ
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From: FRJ
Date: 03-Nov-09
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KAZ, I surely ment no disrespect to you or your opinions. I believe your thoughts on the subject are valid and extremely valuable to everyone on this site that plan on using these and other carbon shafts.I believe that these shafts, that now reside in the dumpster, are just reaching the end of their usable life. Weather or not the front end is heavily loaded or not the arrow has to flex a certain amount to give good arrow flight. This will be a subject for my new testing. The question now is whats the difference between a 340 with 260 on the front and a 400 with a lesser amount on the front? Intuitively I believe both have to flex the same amount and therefore should both be stressed the same.My real concern and the reason I started this thread is for the safety of anyone having this happen and driving a broken shaft thru their hand or arm. The new Axis's are supposed to be 15% stronger, maybe there is a reason Easton did that? As I have said before I think the Axis shaft is the greatest invention since sliced bread and I will most definately continue to use them. FRJ
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 03-Nov-09
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I think that too many guys are starting to think that Ashby is infallible. This idea of extreme FOC and extreme weight is in most circumstances overkill and absurd. On the Leatherwall an olympic archer just posted results of testing he did using Carbon Express arrows - one weighing 11.88 grains per pound of draw and one weighing 8.43 grains per pound of draw - both shot out of the same bow.
Predictably there was an increase in speed with the lighter arrow - 26 fps 6 feet from the chrono and 25 fps 22 feet from the chrono.
Also predictably - the slower arrow had a 6 inch drop at 22 yards over the faster arrow.
What will be surprising to many traditional archers is that the heavier arrow lost more speed down range and more energy down range than the lighter arrow - which is the exact opposite of what Ashby and other advocates of extreme FOC and weight claim.
The thread can be found here:
http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=200407&messages=36&CATEGORY=5#2581995
extreme in most things is not good - - a good Bishop once said: "Virtue is almost always in the middle".
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From: FRJ
Date: 03-Nov-09
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onesharp that's interesting, but what ranges were used in the testing? I personally test out to 70 yards but limit my hunting shots to 20yard or less. My interest in a heavier foc was to reduce impact paradox on living tissue. I persued this due to reducing my bow weight from 76# to 55#. When I did this I started looking for the best combination I could find for maximum penetration at hunting ranges on big animals like the Roosevelt's elk that I hunt and sometime kill.With my current set up I can blow thru the scapula on one side and thru the ribs on the other side and still have the arrow continue on and fall on the ground.About the same performance I was getting from the 76#bow with 15% FOC. I surely haven't killed enough elk,is there ever enough, to be able to say that heavy FOC is the way to go but it has worked for me in the past and hopefully in the future. FRJ
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From: MAXHunter
Date: 03-Nov-09
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This thread is interesting, my friend was telling me once about cedars he was using that would break when they hit the target. I personally have never had a carbon break. Like it says on the shaft of my gold tips, "flex first". With what whack n stack added, that makes two people who have had the similar experience, that is interesting.
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 03-Nov-09
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I don't know about Elk - but I shoot 50lbs with a 405 grain arrow - Easton Axis - and have blown through the shoulders of whitetail easily and had a complete pass through everytime.
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 03-Nov-09
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FRJ - the testing was 6 feet and 22 yards. Hunting range - it does not matter which arrow retains more energy at 70 yards when most will not shoot more than 25 yards in a hunting situation.
Heavier front of center dos not reduce the impact of the archers paradox unless you are using arrows that are spined to heavy to begin with.
If you started shooting 400's instead of 340's and used a much lighter tip - you can tune them to recover from pardox just as well as the 340's - without the added weight up front and the unusual and undue stress on the arrow that the extreme amount of weight up front is causing.
As far as shooting the life out of them - I have not been shooting the Axis long enough to know - but when I shot the GT's i had some that lasted over 5 years - would just refletch them. I know guys with compunds that shoot 3D and winter leagues with Axis and never had one break - and they have also been using the same arrows for years.
I am convinced that you are breaking your arrows because of the extreme FOC.
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 03-Nov-09
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FRJ - excuse all the typos in the last post - been making Christmas wreaths and my hands are numb!
Anyhow - think of it this way - you are taking a shaft - the 340's that are designed to be a stiff arrow - and by adding the relatively massive amount of weight up front - you are forcing them to flex more than they were designed to flex.
It would be like taking a muskie rod and trying to bend it as much as a walleye or pan fishing rod - the rod will snap - because it is not designed to have that much flex.
I bet that the extra weight up front is forcing that arrow to flex more than it is designed to flex and after repeated shots it finally gives and breaks.
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From: FRJ
Date: 03-Nov-09
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One sharp, thank you for your valued imput. What I'm having trouble getting my head around is: Wouldn't a lighter spined shaft with a lower foc have to bend just as much as my 340 setup? Also I am using the setup that I have, not because of Dr Asby who I haven't even had the time to read but because I wanted the most weight I could get and still use the Axis shaft.Elk are fairly large animals and it really isn't fair to compare the whitetail to them. Probably a thousand pounds difference between a Roosie Bull and a whitetail buck.I just checked the date of mfgr. on my PSA III and it is 12/04 so I've been using these shafts since I got that bow which is five years of usage. I think I got my moneys worth. I know I shoot an average of 500 arrows a week so that would be 26000 shots a year divided by a dozen would be 2166shots per arrow per year times 5 years would be 10830 shots per arrow. I think I got my moneys worth. I started this thread to ask for opinions from anyone will to do so and I got some great ones. I also wanted to warn anyone else using the same set up as I am to be careful there may be a problem with this set up. I think you guys are probably correct about the high FOC but I'm going to continue to use it with the new nano shafts I have on order and keep close track on the number of shots on these arrows. I'll probably toss them after 4 years. Thank You All for your imput it is greatly valued. FRJ
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From: KAZ
Date: 04-Nov-09
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"Wouldn't a lighter spined shaft with a lower foc have to bend just as much as my 340 setup?"
FRJ, the only comment that comes to mind is: The "stiffer" a material is the more likely it is to break instead of bend. The 340s deflect less than the 400s so to me that makes them more brittle. Not saying they're weaker, just more brittle. Now couple that with more inertia directed towards the front end which abrubtly comes to a halt.... The 400s would flex more, which distributes the energy across it's length, but also require less front-end weight, and have less forward inertia. I know my answer isn't really scientific, but some of the "strongest/hardest/stiffest" trees break in the wind, others "bend" for a lifetime. I have no doubt you'll effectively "manage" your set-up and properties and achieve success. My last comment is a repeat from before: I fear this "breakage" is not a predictable decline based on the number of shots. You commented on Dr. Ashby. I would be very interested to hear his spin on these exact issues we're discussing because if anyone has seen the effects of E.F.O.C. and it's effect on an arrow's structural integrity both instantaneous & long-term, it would be him. Hard to argue with 10830 shots per arrow without prior related failures. I may be all wet, just trying to interpret the data for future benefit. Just like you & everyone else on this thread. Here's wishing you another 10000 successful shots with each Axis Nano Shaft, maybe more! And may several of those shots make there way through the lungs of the Roosies you pursue.
KAZ
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From: FRJ
Date: 04-Nov-09
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KAZ, thanks for your comments. I guess I'll have to read the good Dr's research and hopefully gain a little more knowledge. Hopefully the Nano's will be here in time to tune them before my late elk hunt in 3 weeks. Otherwise I'll really be testing my theory by having to shoot my 45# PSA with Axis 500's and only 200 gr up front. Have a great day. FRJ
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From: Rom120
Date: 04-Nov-09
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FRJ, Go to Traditional Bowhunter and join their site. There is a forum dedicated to Dr. Ashby's research. Pretty "heady" stuff to say the least. It should take you only a month or two to get through it all. I have to give the guy credit. He does the work.
I did a quick search on carbon shaft breakage but haven't come up with anything.
Good luck on your elk hunt! Hunting elk with my widow is a dream of mine....hopefully someday soon.
Jeff
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 04-Nov-09
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why not try a weight tube if you desire all this extra weight - at least then you are not putting the bulk of the excess weight up front? My guess is that 200 grains up front on a 500 will be too much for a 45lb bow - unless the arrows are real short.
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From: FRJ
Date: 04-Nov-09
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Hi Onesharp,I've done the weight tubes and even with them epoxied full length into the shafts they eventually move and usually push out the nock. As far as the 500's with 200 up front they also have been individually bare shafted and video'd and shoot like the proverbial dart. Not that I'd use them but do they actually make a tube for axis shafts? FRJ
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 04-Nov-09
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don't know - never used them - never been into extremely heavy arrows - the heaviest arrows I ever shot were just under 11 gpi - now i shoot about 8 gpi. I just can't imagine that it is good to have such a high percentage of the overall weight of shaft condensed into the last inch.
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From: FRJ
Date: 04-Nov-09
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I just got to thinking (bad habit) and I don't know how I'd get much less than 200gr on the front. with a 160 Grizzly and an adapter approx 35-45 gr I can't get any lighter. Only other head I'd use would be a 145 Eclipse and that would only save me 15gr. FRJ
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From: FRJ
Date: 04-Nov-09
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Onesharp sorry to bother you again but I just weighed a completed 500 axis with the 200 up front and it only weighs 483gr. Thats only 10.7 to 1 ratio. Widow recomends not going above 12-1 I believe so I'm not shooting extreme heavy arrows. I don't think.I think it should be adequate for elk. Hopefully I'll find out soon. FRJ
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From: onesharpbroadhead
Date: 04-Nov-09
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I don't know what ratio your talking about. Black Widow recommends between 8 and 12 grains per pound of draw weight.
Your weight seems a bit off - I have some 500's here with the camo finish (makes them a bit heavier) and they are 30" long with a 125 grain tip, three fletch and they weigh 425 grains.
My 400's with a 125 grain tip that are not camo weight 430 - for some reason I thought they weighed 403 - dyslexia or dementia must be setting in.
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From: Gilly
Date: 04-Nov-09
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Consider this. How many of us have pulled an arrow out of a target and torqued it, even when we try to pull them out as straight as possible. Especially with foam core 3d's....I know I have had some real hard times pulling arrows and even with a rubber arrow gripper thingy I still manage to bend the arrow.....I guess after many times doing this, the arrow gets fatigued.
My two cents.
Cheers,
Harley
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From: Gilly
Date: 04-Nov-09
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PS
I shoot nothing but axis infused arrows.....
Harley
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From: FRJ
Date: 05-Nov-09
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onesharp, I just weighed, again an arrow marked, Easton Axis ST 500 8.7gpi. I also checked the point weight which was exactly 200 gr.I have to believe that my scale is accurate. Total arrow weight was 487 gr. Thats 4gr more than the previous arrow I weighed. I divided that weight by the bow poundage and got a ratio of 10.8 didn't carry it out to the tenth position but I think thats close enough. Thats the ratio I was talking about and as you state Widow recommends a top ratio of 12-1 I'm well below that. Hope that explains what I was trying to say. I think all of you including Harley have valid points. Harleys idea about the torquing had never occured to me. I am starting to believe that just like everything else in life arrow shafts wear out. What I had thought of as bullet proof may not be I know I sure show signs of wear and tear after 65 years of rough living guess I can't expect any more from my arrow shafts.In any event those are long gone and the new Axis shafts are on the way. Hope we have all learned something from this discourse. With my highest regards to all. Frank
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